Yesterday Catholics For Choice ran the following full page ad in the Austin American-Statesman.
Photo provided by Catholics For Choice
That led me to post the following comment on the Catholics For Choice Facebook page.
It is very interesting that “Christ humbled himself becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:8)” yet this group of so called “Catholics” refuses to be obedient to the Church they profess to be a part of. Doesn’t sound very Christ-like to me.
Faithful Catholics have made their choice. We have chosen to be obedient to the Pope and the Magisterium. We have made the choice to make God’s Will our will and NOT the other way around. We have chosen to honor the views of God and not the views of man. If you have chosen a different path then you cannot call yourself Catholic, as was so eloquently stated by Archbishop Charles Chaput.
One cannot be a pro-choice catholic…There are Catholics who don’t understand that and think they’re Catholics.
So here’s the question and I hope that if you know anyone who falls into this camp that you will share this post with them, because I really would like to know the answer. Why be Catholic? I was once told that one reason the Catholic Church doesn’t allow non-Catholics to take communion is because when we go up to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord at Mass we are professing with our actions that we believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches. Not a few things, not only the things we agree with, but everything. There are plenty of other denominations out there that would gladly share and welcome your views on abortion, gay marriage and women priests. Why do you feel the need to change something that hasn’t changed in 2000 years? As much as you might not want to hear this, the Church will never change because She is built upon the unchanging teachings of Christ.
At the end of the day there is really only once “choice” and I’ll once again quote Archbishop Chaput:
“If you’re Catholic and you disagree with your Church. What do you do? You change your mind.”
The combox is open. I welcome your feedback…
Well stated Jason. Thanks!
Thanks Sharon.
Thank you for taking the time to address this disappointing group. Well spoken. Nothing made my heart hurt worse than the “Pro choice Catholics” in Austin. Being a faithful Catholic, it pained me to see people holding those signs. 🙁 I am beyond baffled by the Catholics in politics– Pelosi, Biden, Sebellius. What a disservice they do to our beautiful faith.
Love Archbishop Chaput, great post!
🙂
Some would even rebut this by saying “2,000 is too long, we live in a new world.” That’s half right- actually, 3/4 right. It is a new world, 2,000 is a long time. However, 2,000 is not too long to be without change.
Truth and Beauty do not change with time. Has the physical sky been blue for more than 2,000 years? Yes. Is that too long to stay one color? No, it’s beautiful! “But that’s a physical law, what we’re talking about is different.” Right, the physical world is governed by physical and natural laws. It is good to recognize that.
And what of morality? Should things like discrimination, sexism, racism, abortion, murder be considered right and true today because they’ve been “wrong” “for too long?” Should we repeal laws that protect the rights of minorities? If I use the logic of “it’s been too long,” we should repeal such laws.
And yet, something inside the person pushes back and says “no, discrimination is always bad is always wrong is always harmful.”
What’s my point? Jason writes of the 2,000+ years this moral teaching has been in effect. I propose it not to be changed, but to be honored. How stable of a truth we have been revealed! How beautiful and precious is this teaching! It has been preserved for so long- that should testify to its value, to its significance, to its seriousness. Who else has been so stable in their convictions and beliefs? Who else has sought God by way of such a narrow and straight path?
Rejoice in the doctrine! Search it and find the beauty of it. See how precious and good and worthwhile life is… if Mother Church has preserved and honored this truth for so long… what can that mean about the value and dignity of your human life… of mine? How much does Mother care for us? How much does she give to us and make whole for us?
Amen!
Amen. Pray for all sinners. The rosary is the weapon and the way to change hearts and minds.
Catholic?!! Really?!! Why is this organization primarily funded by some of the most bigoted, anti-Catholic groups, such as the Ford Foundation, Buffett Foundation, John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, Rockefeller Foundation, and the Playboy Foundation. Hmmm!!! I smell astroturf!
The time has LONG passed for the bishops of the US to address people who call themselves Catholic and embrace abortion. Ted Kennedy did it for 40 years, and when he died he got a Cardinal at his funeral. Responsibility for this blasphemous nonsense is on the shoulders of the USCCB and individual bishops who do nothing. Soft-pedaling and hand-wringing solve nothing. It is time to act decisively for the welfare of souls and the good of the whole Church. Kyrie eleison !
JamesA, anyone can have a Catholic funeral who (a) was, at the bare minimum, baptized Catholic and (b) did not specifically indicate a desire against having a Catholic funeral. That also includes catechumens and, I believe, baptized adults preparing to enter the Catholic Church.
Do I like that? Not really. I think you should have to live like a Catholic to “die like a Catholic,” so to speak. Is it true? Yes.
Sorry… I just have another comment as an outside observer. Im interested in genuine discussion if you are. Do you not see the problem with the quote from the bishop? Blind obedience? That’s ok if you were dealing with Jesus directly, but you’re dealing with humans translating things. And for you to to think God has instilled in you the ability to tell others about their personal relationship with God and what they can and cannot call themselves- that seems like hubris to me. And I don’t think God cares for that much. We already know the Catholic church, like all churches, is very fallible and open to human corruption. Look at the giant abuse coverup and how people abused their privileges. Would you tell a victim who was told by his priest to “change his mind just to coincide with what he was told?” I hope not. Some people do bad things in the name of God, or just completely misinterpret his teachings. I would be more humble because what you need to cement is your relationship with God. Others may have had revelations revealed to them by God that you perhaps haven’t yet. I don’t see how being critical of your brothers and sisters and telling them they cannot be Catholic if they disagree is helping God with his work. I know the fundamental tenants of your teachings… But just be wise enough to know that we don’t know everything and neither do our human counterparts. I know very little as well, but I thinks it’s always nice to facilitate discussion.
*Tenets, not tenants. Crazy auto-correct.
We all agree that the Church has, does, and will make mistakes. It’s part human, you’re right. It sounds like part of what you’re saying is that it is difficult or impossible for the human to know the will or the law of God.
Article 12 and 13 of the following link addresses the ability to know God. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1012.htm#article7
It seems to me that if a good or truth is known by someone, and if that truth is of supreme importance, it should be conveyed and grasped by as many receptive persons as possible. For the Christian, knowledge of God is part of one’s life. More than an intellectual knowledge- a personal and loving knowledge, that of a relationship, “I know him,” rather than “I know of him.” Both can be true for the one person who says that.
It’s also true to say people are able to proclaim a false doctrine while claiming it is true and divine. That’s another topic I think. But I like your point, we do not know everything about God or his law, if we call it that. If we did know everything about God, WE would be infinite, we would be God… and that’s not the case.
While I hear what you are saying, I disagree a bit. In order to spread your word, you should allow people to question things that don’t feel right to them or that don’t intellectually make sense. Saying to them that what we say goes isn’t the most enticing thing for someone to hear when trying out a new faith. That would rightfully send many potential disciples running for the door. To say one is not a Catholic seems so judgemental in an unGodly way. Perhaps those Catholcs who are pro-choice think not interfering in what others consider a right and a women’s health issue is the best to get a foot in the door to spread what you all refer to as the “good news.” This doesn’t mean pro-choice Catholics think abortion is right for THEM- they just don’t want to make these choices for others. The best way to show faith is to live by example, not force one’s ideals onto someone who doesn’t want them. We also know as spiritual people that the laws of this earth are measly and inconsequential when it comes to the infinite laws of God or your higher power or universe. Banning abortion may genuinely be seen by these Catholics as not the best way to spread God’s word. There different ways to do things, and it’s not to us to say how God expresses himself in the hearts of others. God gave us the ability to question and think and feel- people should question their church or temple if they feel something isn’t right. Blind allegiance to any human is dangerous. Democratic thought and discussion seems like a much better choice. I again go back to Priests threatening their victims and the culture of the Catholic Church made these people feel they could not come forward and begin to heal. To an outsider, the culture and “do not question” mentality seems more hurtful to your stated cause.
“you should allow people to question things that don’t feel right to them or that don’t intellectually make sense.” Oh yes! That’s what brought me back to the faith- friends who would talk it out with me, and let me wrestle with them through tough issues like these. If it wasn’t for them, and the friends I have met since then, my image of the Church would be mostly negative an uninviting… even if I intellectually agreed with the doctrine and the reason.
Just to clarify earlier… I do agree it should be a willful act of the person to believe and practice etc., and that’s why I said “grasped by as many receptive persons as possible.” Receptive, curious, seeking, not closed or set on another way of thinking with no room for change or consideration.
“Banning abortion may genuinely be seen by these Catholics as not the best way to spread God’s word.” I agree with that, too. Like you said earlier, personal contact and discussion is how we humans like to engage one another. Banning abortion may be an effect of God’s Word taking root in society, but should it be the first? If it was the first motive of the Christian, I’m not sure that Christian has the right intention.
“God gave us the ability to question…” yes! Faith and reason point to and grasp for the same Object.. which is Truth. Anything known by reason is not opposed to something known by faith. <— that's a little bit different of a discussion I'm getting at.
I'm sorry you see a 'do not question' mentality. I have seen it too and it hurts to admit some of us Christians are not open to dialogue and civil discussion. I hope the few of us here can give a taste of what you're looking for.
Sarah,
I understand the confusion between the human Church and the Divine Church. Most people tend to blend the two, thinking they are one in the same. The Church that Christ left us, the full deposit of Truth, that closed upon the death of the last Apostle can NEVER be changed. It is protected by the Holy Spirit and promised against the gates of hell by Christ Himself.
The problem I see that people have is that they confuse Church leadership with what Christ left us. Humans who RUN the Church are, yes, fallible. All churches have this problem, right?
It doesn’t change the Dogma and Doctrine of the Church.
The issue that Jason so eloquently brings up here is not a matter of saying that Archbishop Chaput’s comment is “infallible” – he is simply stating that those who advocate for abortion and are baptized Catholic are at odds with Catholic belief.
Do we not want to elevate those who are misguided to a better understanding of the Faith? Do we not want them to come into a stronger relationship with Christ that aligns with His teachings found in His Church? To protect life, ALL life from conception to natural death?
Would it be better to allow these folks to stand in the middle of the road with a car barreling towards them at 90mph or should we call them aside and ask them to reevaluate what they are advocating for?
I hear what you are saying Martina. But I think the way to spread what you desire is through close personal contact and discussion. I don’t think a law has ever “saved” anyone. Then you anonymously impose something on others and don’t get to explain and have discussion. I think you can change minds, but not by trying to make abortion illegal. If you really want to move people towards God, it seems you would like to work with what is, not what you wish would be. The car example goes towards the idea that you need to remove them with close contact. Not banning it. It is illegal to stand in front of a car, bit explaining it up close and personal is the best way to get your point accross. As a psychologist, we know that explainig and leasing by example and letting arrive at their own conclusions is a much better approach to helping people change. Stopping them doesn’t change their genuine feelings and heart. It’s phony and maybe just makes you all feel better. Again, I respect your personal decicion to be pro-choice, but respect others to know you dont know everything and you don’t have all of the answers. Catholics who may be pro-choice aren’t PRO-ABORTION, they aren’t pro-choice for themselves. They must just see a different way to spread the unchanging facts that you referred to. I think it is the opposite of humble to not only tell someone what they can and can’t do, but now to tell others how they can and can’t think about what others can and can’t do. Really think about that. Only God can judge, not you or me or anybody. Especially not judge those who are “on your side” and just see a different way to spread your word. As a non-Christian and someone who is very skeptical, I can say if you want to be very effective in changing hearts and minds and getting God’s message out, trying to ban things and forcing people to do what you would do and how you interpret God’s will is not the answer. Non-Christians talk about this all of the time- it is the holier than thou, forced approach that most people could do without. I think it repels a lot of people from your faith. Just because of that doesn’t mean you should change what you believe to be the fundamental teachings, but you may want to be open-minded in terms of how affect change and introduce more people to God and the beautiful aspects of your faith. Sorry for the long paragraphs and typos- my Disqus on iPad doesn’t allow for much editing.
Oops- I meant you are pro-life, obviously.
Thanks again for joining the conversation and I plan to address more of your points when I have more time to write. I wanted to quickly address one thing you mentioned about “anonymously imposing” without discussion. As a group that is dedicated to serving the people of the Diocese of Austin this is the last thing we intend to do. We are all from the area and specifically address issues that are local to our area so that we avoid being just soulless avatars. We hold quarterly meet-ups and speaking for myself am always open to sitting down with someone over a cup of coffee to talk about anything faith related or not.
I do intend to address the other things you brought up as well when I get a free moment.
Thanks,
Jason
Sarah, I think you are confusing the spirit of the law with the letter of the law. Laws actually do save lives. I give you the Ten Commandments of that proof. I think the letter of the law is what you have an issue with…things can come across as legalistic, but guaranteed, at the root of all these “rules” and “laws” certainly *is* the love of Christ. Think of the laws/rules of the Church as the safeguard around a trampoline. The net is there not to prevent fun, but to give clear boundaries so we can safely play.
I appreciate your insights, but I would love to know how you respond to this group putting this ad out in the first place. Are they not held to the same standards that you are placing on this group? Sincere question. Looking forward to your thoughts. 🙂
Regarding “law,” the Torah, or the Law of the Jews was (is?) the way God communicated to his people pre-Jesus. Galatians and Romans have a lot to say about the relation of the Torah to “the new law,” which is summed up in one word, according to St. Paul.
I’m not sure i understand exactly what you are saying, but I’m eager to. Maybe I should clarify some of my points and assumptions. First off, Jason, I think it’s wonderful that you have up close and personal meetings that facilitate discourse. I think that’s a great way to get the message out. I don’t live in Austin and stumbled upon this blog, so I can’t speak for people in Austin. What I’ve been referring to is the idea that Catholics want to make abortion illegal for everyone and criticize Catholics for not feeling the same way. Saying they are not Catholic or faithful seems very harsh. I perceive some things about the Catholic church as an anonymous group of people willing to impose their will on others. You may feel it’s God’s will, but we know not everyone sees it that way. The laws of this country are nothing compared to the real laws of a higher power, as Martina referred to. I do believe there are some natural laws that will always be. So a sweeping law that bans abortion seems very impersonal, over-reaching, and intrusive of the beliefs of others.
I am assuming that Catholics who are pro-choice are not pro-choice for themselves, and they’re aren’t pro-abortion. They just don’t feel the best way to deal with non-believers is to promote fallible legislation that people see as inhibiting their rights. I’m not saying Catholics shouldn’t feel the way they do about abortion, but I think you should acknowledge that others may just think there is a better approach to spreading the gospel (I hope that is a term Catholics use, but you know what I mean). They may feel genuinely divinely inspired to lead people to a pro-life stance by showing them they are open-minded to different belief systems and don’t want to move people in their direction more quickly than a comfortable with. What I meant is that laws will not stop abortions. It just makes you all look so closed and seem like you think you know better than everyone else. There are so many ways to know God- if you feel yours is the best, show them. Don’t tell them what to do.
Jason- your comments take a much different tone than your harsh, decisive post. To alienate your fellow people and say they aren’t faithful or Catholics seems really sad for them, simply because they want to allow others to decide, even if they disagree. By allowing free will does not encourage abortions. It’s not like you are supporting abortion. You may be against it for yourself and would want to talk to anyone who shows interest or who you are close with. Didn’t God give us free will? If you are living in accordance with what you consider to be the doctrine, that should be what you are most concerned with. All you seem to disagree on with these folks is the best way to come across to others in order to spread the good news. Does that make sense? I focused a lot of my points on what that Bishop you said. I just couldn’t believe that was seen as a positive! Questioning and doubt is a part of making genuine faith, correct? A Bishop shouldn’t say when asked why, “Because I said so.” Only God can say that. You all are here to relay God’s will and let people decide if they want to accept.
Martina- I don’t know the intention of the ad. It may be activism as a way to show nonbelievers that hey, “We aren’t as oppressive as you think. If you are struggling, we are safe to come to and we can show you a way out through God, but it’s not our way to force it on you.” It just seems so arrogant to call people fake Catholics because of a difference of beliefs on how to deal with others and disseminate the truth.
The answer to that would be that the Church has always taught that murder is wrong. People who don’t believe even know that murder is wrong. It’s written on the hearts of all of mankind.
The problem we have with abortion is that it muddies up the definition of life and where it begins. As believers who know God is the ultimate Author of all life, we know that He is not a god of confusion. God is a God of great clarity. Science and faith are not mutually exclusive on the point of where life begins. Science backs that life begins at conception. The Church has never wavered in this teaching.
Rather than seeing things the way you are “Catholics wants to make abortion illegal for everyone” I would gently challenge you to look at this issue through the lens of what Catholicism actually teaches.
First, address abortion for what it is, murder. Murder of who? The most innocent of all God’s creatures. Just on a logical level, does that seem like a travesty to you? To condemn souls created to glorify God to death, ultimately putting our flawed selves in the place of the Almighty?
Anyway…just a few things to consider. If you’d like us to point you to some resources for study, please let us know. This blog serves to catechize and educate, Catholics and non-Catholics. 🙂
Hi Martina. I understand both sides of the abortion issue. I can see how it is seen as murder in one sense, and a minor medical procedure to others. It all depends on how one sees it. The problem is defninetly a difference in belief.
I respect what you are saying, but I find it a little confusing from my point of view. I know Catholics don’t share this view, but as Buddhists we believe that ALL life is valuable, vulnerable, and can feel pain and suffering. So to me it’s hypocritical when people don’t mind that animals died a horrible, slow, torturous death and lived a miserable, inhumane existence so they can enjoy a steak. I also bet plenty of people who oppose abortion have squished a bug or spider or killed a pest in their home, instead of catching and releasing if possible. So for me, that logic doesn’t work. I’m not perfect at not contributing to hurting all of God’s creations, but I do my best. I wouldn’t force others to not eat meat or call Buddhists who do eat me “not Buddhists.” It’s a journey, and I believe we are all doing the best we can.
It seems you think those Catholics who view how to deal with gentiles differently than you make you look bad instead of embracing them and showing them the way you feel is true. God will judge them in time and they will have to make peace with themselves, whatever the outcome. If you know you are living a righteous life and you are good with God, I don’t see why one would be so concerned with who disgrees with you. Living by kind, loving example is clearly the best way to illustrate the gifts of your faith. I think it’s God job to worry about the other stuff, not yours. I know that Christans think that God made humans special somehow, so I get that this is different for you all and you may think the idea of not killing a tiny bug is silly, but to me it is the most rational thing. That being said, I understand emotions run high with abortions and people feel very deeply about it. Hopefully more will be revealed that will help us all figure out a solution that pleases God (the universe) and respects the rights of women and humans. Again, these typos are driving me nuts- I’m usually a perfectionist. My Disqus freezes after I try to go back too and change things too many times. Very strange.
Sarah,
I think your expression of the sanctity of life, all life is awesome! As I’m the one who wrote the post above I thought it was important that I address the questions you had.
I do understand where you are coming from and one of the goals of my post was to spark conversations with pro-choice Catholics because I do really want to understand where they are coming from. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that what you express is the view of pro-choice Catholics and that they themselves don’t believe in abortion but want people to be able to choose for themselves. The initial issue I have with this is that if someone who didn’t know anything about the Catholic faith came in contact with these people first they might wrongly assume that the Church’s stance on abortion is pro-choice. Secondly, you have the issue of Catholics who may not be properly educated in the Faith that are doing research into Church teachings and come across “Catholics for Choice” and once again assume incorrectly that this is correct Church teaching. Whether they mean to or not (and I’m sure they don’t) this group is outwardly saying the sin of abortion is okay as long as the person thinks it’s OK, relativism run a muck.
As you saw from my post on my Being Saint Joseph blog I’m actually not really big on legislating this sort of stuff. I would rather people truly understand that while sex is good and pleasurable the way God intended it to be He also intended it to be procreative. It’s when we ignore the procreative life creating aspect of sex that we get ourselves in trouble.
On to the issue of calling Catholics who don’t follow all the tenets of the faith Not Catholic. I understand that it sounds harsh and in a lot of ways it is. This isn’t something that I go around saying to people because it’s not charitable but again I was trying to make a point and spark conversation. Would you remain a Buddhists if there were core beliefs that you didn’t believe in and felt needed to be changed knowing full well that those beliefs would never be changed?
Thanks again and I look forward to speaking with you more.
Thanks for answering, Jason! You are much nicer and diplomatic than you seemed at first, as a I (my first comment on your other post was snarky). Even if you don’t wish to engage in public policy, the implication is that you will. I can appreciate not wanting to mislead the public into thinking abortion is cool with Catholics. I would trust your counterparts a little more than that to clarify to folks that this is not the right choice for Catholics, but they don’t wish to make a choice for non-Catholics. As for Buddhism, it’s interesting because Buddhism wouldn’t really would if it was set up so differently. It wouldn’t be Buddhism. But I guess that’s kinda your point. I just didn’t realize Catholics we required to make it clear that if they had it their way, nobody would able to have a choice. I think that’s scary. I agree- our views on sex as a society are all messed up. I don’t believe birth control is evil like most Catholics do, but we have a lot to think about when it comes to casual sex for fleeting pleasure.
So many typos- hopefully you get the point.
Stopping a beating heart is not a minor medical procedure. It is ending a life that will never be repeated. Women, even unborn females, deserve better than abortion.
Elizabeth- are you a vegetarian or vegan or do you only mean human heart beats? All life that dies needlessly will never be repeated. Hopefully you feel comfortable practicing what you preach. I am not pro-abortion by any means, but it is a reality that many people consider an abortion a minor medical procedure. You are welcome to disagree, but that doesn’t necessarily change the minds of anyone else. And I agree- taking a life or a potential life is an extremely major decision.
Hi Martina. Something you said stuck with me and I’ve been meaning to ask you about it ever since. You said your God is a God of great clarity. As someone more on the outside looking in, it always seems like the exact opposite. If he is so clear, this article wouldn’t even need to be written it seems. Why do Catholics feel differently on things than other Christians? And how do you explain so many religions that don’t agree at all? It seems like if it was clear, this wouldn’t be. In your view, only one group can be “right” yet everyone is as convinced as you are that God is clear and they are living his word. How do so many people get it wrong but his message is so clear to you? I’m genuinely curious about this from an insiders perspective. Hope you are well, my little debate buddy.
Would you have the same attitude about legal slavery? If you had only one child, and you saw someone coming at that child with a chainsaw, would you not do everything in your power to stop the massacre? Every child counts, we are bound by God’s law and natural law to protect those who cannot protect themselves. This has nothing to do with autonomy but everything to do with taking the Gospels to heart, the Gospels that the Creator placed into our possession to do rather than just understand. We have no right to kill our children whether believer or unbeliever. Murder, the stopping of an innocent heart is wrong. Roe is bad law, just as slavery was. There will be no peace in this land until we stop the killing of our future.
When abortion was illegal 4000 children were not slaughtered every day. So yes, in that case the law did save people. Consumer laws save people, workplace safety laws save people, food and building inspection laws save people, all sorts of laws save people. If you are a psychologist you also know that there is a well-known difference between changing individual behavior and changing group behavior. Laws tend to change group behaviors very quickly.
Gail- thanks for your insightful input (a little late, but that’s ok!). I didn’t intend to come on this blog and be so contrary but every time someone comments, I feel compelled to write back. In response to your first point, I think you mean you just didn’t know about the number of abortions being performed because the statistics were completely inaccurate because it was illegal. I know you aren’t naive enough to believe that just because they were illegal, they weren’t happening. They were happening, and unfortunately it seems they will always happen in the foreseeable future.
I think if you read my comment it is fairly clear that I didn’t mean save people like from food-born illness or something! I mean salvation, like the way God saves people. I stand by that our little human laws do not save people. I’m sure you would acknowledge that the laws of your church and your morals are more important to you than American law, fallible and feeble-minded.
As I’ve said many times, I’m not pro-abortion. I don’t celebrate it. I am just not as black and white on the issue as you are. And that’s ok. It’s ok to not try to oversimplify a very complicated issue. I don’t think human laws will do that. I don’t think it will ever become fully illegal. I’m trying to work within that context instead of condemning and judging- I leave that to God!
To whoever said they will never have peace while unborn babies are dying- I feel bad, but you are likely to not be a peace for quite sometime. There is so much injustice and terrible things on this planet, so if you can’t find a peace, that’s a tough place to be since we can’t control others, only ourselves.
It’s easy. Pull out a Bible and find where God says it’s ok to kill your children. Have you found it? Didn’t think so.
Pro-Choice is Pro-Death for the unborn.
Here Here… good point.. Deal directly with Jesus, forego the political association that is the Catholic Church who has added new requirements for salvation. Obedience doesn’t have to be blind as a born again Christian because God will show you personally what you need to know, and it will make sense without the “approval” or “sanctioning” from the Church…
Sarah,
Here’s one way to explain it. There is a historical “deposit of faith” that the Catholic Church is built on. This “deposit of faith” serves as the “charter” of the Church and has created a hierarchical structure that governs the Church. This hierarchy includes a teaching authority charged with preserving the “deposit of faith” and interpreting faith as needed to address society at any given point
in time. This teaching authority has historically wrestled with questions and controversies over the centuries and, when necessary, defined dogmas and doctrines to clarify the church’s position on a wide variety of subjects.
Where the Church has given no definite teaching but leaves
it a free matter, we are free to hold any opinion. This is often where people get confused. Being a Catholic means that we submit to official Church teaching in the area of Faith and Morals. One is free to be a Catholic or not be Catholic…but *being* a Catholic means we submit to the church’s authority on matters of faith and morals. Otherwise, one cannot rationally and honestly call oneself a Catholic.
I agree that personal involvement and one-on-one
relationships are far better methods for conveying the faith than simply shouting mandates. That is a problem with method, not belief. But the other side of the issue is that many people lose sight of the fact that the Catholic faith is supposed to transform us. Many
people have “inherited” the faith rather than made a truly personal conversion to it, and thus feel the Church should behave like secular organizations that adhere to democratic opinion, subject to the whims and winds of the culture at any point in time.
To quote Matthew Warner, “We have a modern snobbishness that has reduced religion to a personal preference. One huge problem with that is that once a religion becomes merely a product of your own personal preference, it’s no longer able to do what it is meant to do: Transform you. There is no use for it anymore other than to affirm what you already are. It becomes a useless, destructive exercise in self-gratification.”
See the following blog article to better understand this line of thinking.
http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/right-where-we-are-wrong/
Thanks Sarah for your charitable and candid engagement on this topic! Dialog is a great thing and I think we all need to be challenged to consider what we believe and how we best convey those beliefs.
Steve- I do understand what you are saying. I grew up with half of my family being very practicing Catholics. I saw my Grandma disinherit my wonderful uncle because in her words, “He isn’t gay, he just thinks he is.” I have also seen the wonderful and disciplined aspects of your faith, which I respect. So in a sense I am playing devil’s advocate here. I have looked, but was not able to find it- what exactly does it say about the beliefs of Catholics regarding the beliefs of others? Do they have to make sure nonbelievers can only do what Catholics think is right, or are Catholics allowed at all to let others make their own decisions based on their respective beliefs? Perhaps I am misinterpreting this altogether. As I said, I am working off the assumption that these Catholics are not pro-choice for themselves, they just don’t want to restrict the freedom of others. Is that what you think as well? I don’t think they are pro-abortion, but do they always have to support the strictest mandates possible to stop it? I do think religion transforms you and holds you accountable to something more, and if the fundamentals say you have to be exactly a certain way on certain issues, I guess you have to. I just can’t see how this is God’s very best plan for us to reach ourselves and others.
Hello people! Freemasons didnt just vanish. They are still here and hate the Church and wish to see it ruined. All of these idiotic little groups who have funding and publicity are all supported by wealthy Freemasons.
Oh, and there are Freemasons INSIDE the Church as well.
This conversation just got very interesting.
tHE only linked to Jesus Christ teaching is through the Pope and the Magisterium. And Christ promised the gates of hell will not prevail against his church (through Peter and his successors)…IF ANY CATHOLIC THINKS HE HAS THE THEOLOGICAL, PHILOSOPHICAL, AND SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE, OPPOSING THE POPE AND THE MAGISTERIUM ( WHO BY THEIR AUTHORITY COULD NOT EVEN OPPOSE THE TEACHINGS OF THE EARLY FATHERS AND THE SCRIPTURE)….THEN THEY SHOULD EXPOSE THEMSELVES AS WHAT THEY ARE, A REAL NON-CATHOLIC WHO ARE ANACHRONISTICALLY EMBRACING THE CULTURE OF DEATH AND OPPOSING THE AUTHENTIC CHURCH ESTABLISHED BY CHRIST. NOBODY IS FORCED TO BE CATHOLIC….THEY SHOULD ADMIT THEIR REBELLION AND EMBRACE OF SATANIC DECEPTION AND DECLARE THEMSELVES NON-CATHOLICS..
I LIKE CAPS LOCK TOO.
Wow. Just wow. Speechless at this one. Where does a rational, God-fearing, reasonable, healthy person even start with a comment like this? Sad.
Science clearly states that a new, unique life, with distinct DNA, begins at fertilization (conception), so forget the argument that the fetus is just part of the mother’s body. Medical advances continue to move the date of human fetus viability closer and closer to conception, so forget the idea that viability outside the womb provides a definition of when “legal” life begins.
I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. I strongly also oppose abortion (and have adopted and raised 4 children!)
But science alone is enough to outlaw abortion except in self defense, i.e. to save the life of the mother.
Those on Pro-Choice side bring up religious beliefs simply to distract from the scientific facts that doom their selfish goal.
You do have choices: 1) don’t get pregnant (or sue the bastard who rapes you); 2) do the honorable thing…. carry to term and put your child up for adoption by someone who would love the opportunity to enjoy sharing the joys of parenting!
Be good… not for a church, but in thanks for the life Nature or Nature’s GOD made possible for you.
How can you deny another child the gift you were given?
The church can’t deny receiving communion. why do people think you have to go through a priest to get what God offers everyone who believes on His Son? The new covenant repealed those legalistic needs to have someone between you and God. I take communion in memory of Jesus often…AS HE SAID AT THE LAST SUPPER, I don’t need a priest with ornate robes in a richly decorated church to mitigate my case for God….Only Jesus does that…
having faith in a “religion” is just silly. Have faith in God and Jesus and the holy spirit and talk to Him yourself. Sheesh…hasn’t the government of Catholicism proven just how un-Jesus like they are yet?
Does that go for Pope Francis too? He’s so un-Christlike…oh, wait. Catholicism doesn’t have a government, it has a Magisterium which was instituted by that Jesus guy who, I agree, rocks.
Is it just me or does this web page NOT have a diagonal bar at the bottom of the page. for some reason I can’t move it from side to side. I’ve seen this on a lot of sites.